JEFF GARDNER: This week we break through another barrier, I mean yet again to bring you voices and interview that you will not hear on any other catholic media and you know that is not bravado that’s just the truth. We are taking you nearly a seven thousand miles around the world to Istanbul Turkey for an interview with Adnan Oktar. Let me spell that name for you; it is A, N- excuse me-A-D-N-A-N O-K-T-A-R, pen name Harun Yahya. Let me spell that for you; H-A-R-U-N Y-A-H-Y-A or Harun as it is sometimes pronounced. And if that is not enough, in our also segment, we are going to catch up with Troy Newman the president of Operation Rescue about some good news and not so good news in the fight for the lives of our little brothers and sisters in Christ. But first let me tell you about how we structured this week’s show and let me tell you about our guest, Mr. Oktar. Now unlike most weeks we are going to forego the news which will give us more time for the main interview. And you know this was an interview that they had asked us about some months ago and i want to thank the producers and the assistants of Mr. Oktar for being very very patient with us. It has taken us sometime to line up this interview. There has been a couple of missed queus and missed opportunities but they hung in there and we hung in there and we are able to bring this interview here to you this week. Let me tell you a little bit about Mr. Adnan Oktar whose pen name is Harun Yahya. And let me explain that pen name, let’s start there: Harun is Arabic for Aaron that is Moses’s companion who spoke for Moses against the pagan pharaoh. And Yahya, Y-A-H-Y-A is Arabic for John, as in John the Baptist who announced the coming of Christ to a disbelieving world. Do you see the pattern emerging here? I said “Gosh! This guy must have some sort of Mesianic complex” and that is not it at all. That is not why he choose these two names. Well the pattern that you should see here is that Mr. Oktar has set out on a course to stand up to atheists, the secularist, the atheistic evolutionists and Darwinianists across the world especially concerning the creation of the world and human kind. And how well he is doing that? Well, you are gonna get to be the judge when you listen to him in our interview and you’ll have a chance to visit his website. Let me tell you a little bit about his background. Mr. Oktar was born in Ankara, Turkey back in 1956 and that’s where he has spent most of his early life, his teen years and during the 1960’s and 1970’s probably the history of modern turkey has not been high on your list of things to do, but those were difficult decades for Turkey and the country underwent a series of violent upheavals with a number of coups on top of governments and it was a period, you know globally we saw that turbulence in 60’s and 70’s here in the United States in which there advances and attempts to –you know- take over the entire state by Marxists backed governments. Although we can look back in retrospect and say how we handled Vietnam probably not the best, but the rhyme and reason for pushing back on the communists, well was perfectly logical. The same thing was happening globally, Turkey was no exception in fact in those decades the 60’s and 70’s you know staying fed and sheltered from the political storms was in itself a challenge let alone advancing your education but Adnan Oktar persisted that he attended universities during this time and getting a degree in fine arts and by the early 1980’s he became increasingly concerned as many of us currently are here in the west about the erosion of the religious values that had underpinned the Turkish society for years and years. Now in an Islamic context of course but concerned none the less. And it began to gather around him likeminded individuals who shared his view on the role of Islam within his own state. And there has been a lot of debate about this in the west and you know, the most of it unfavorable, that is what role does a religion especially Islam play in Seriat-ul Allah and so forth within a country. But we have to understand that within turkey as within other states their faith is their faith and the importance, the contribution, the underpinning to their culture by that faith is equally important to the same respect that you know our nation has been setup according to a very clear set of Judeo-Christian principles and we are without a doubt saying that the attack, the erosion and you know an outright coup to remove those values not only from the public square but really to expunge them from our history. Within Islamic, excuse me, within an Islamic context Turkey was undergoing the same phenomenon in the 60’s 70’s and 80’s. Well, early on in his intellectual carrier , he was, you know, not without controversy and without some of his-well-determent detractors. In 1986 he published a book called “Judaism and Freemasonry” in which he suggested the Zionists and free-Masons in Turkey were part of an effort to undercut the traditional religious character of his country. Was this true? I can’t tell you because I didn’t live in Turkey in the 1960’s 70’s and 80’s. But what was true was he was singled out by Marxist in his country and in the government, imprisoned and tortured for some 19 months for writing this book. In fact, actually what got his thrown into jail was a remark he made about the book in a newspaper interview but he didn’t give up. Now some have further criticized him for alleged anti-Semitism but we looked into this and we looked into this pretty thoroughly and I can tell you that Mr. Oktar had publicly in many many instances affirmed both in writing and in his interviews not only Israel’s right to exist but also the right of all people including our Jewish brothers and sisters to practice their religion in peace. So in our interview you are not going to hear questions, we haven’t put questions on the table about these allegations of anti-Semitism against him and his views concerning Israel. And first and foremost it is just not the focus of the interview. You know we arranged to speak to him about his work as a creationist and his opposition to Darwinian atheism. But secondly because again, based on our research, it is clear for going on a decade plus, that it is just not been the part of the landscape of his views. It was in the early 1990’s when as a writer and a thinker he really pushed things into high gear. And right around that time he founded an organization called Scientific Research Foundation and he began writing what would be the first of several hundred books I think by our count written personally by him some 300. By the late 1990’s he had isolated what he believed to be the source of secular humanism and religious decay in his country. And that source that he isolated was Darwinism. And for those of you who might say:”What?!” do you remember Ben Stein’s film Expelled, I hope that you know because we interviewed Marc Malthus one of the executive producers of the film right here in this show. But Ben Stein makes the same point. That is you can draw a direct line from Darwin to Hitler, to signer to the mass that we are in today. Now Mr. Oktar is an old earth creationist. That is although he accepts that the earth is very very old, he also believes that the creatures on this earth have not evolved. In fact he is so confidant in this that he has put a multi-million dollar price for the first person who can produce an intermediary fossil. What we mean by that is a fossil which shows you know within an organism the types of mutations that would be needed to support the theory of evolution. And so far although there has been a much a ridicule from P.Z. Myers and company no one has come forward and taken up that challenge. Well his work against evolutionists and evolutionary atheists has brought scores of reporters to his door including those from the BBC, Al Jazeera , State television of France, and most of the world’s major print publications. And we are going to be speaking with him through an interpreter Mr. Golcin. And we are reaching them both by phone, by speakerphone in Mr. Oktar’s residence in Istanbul, Turkey. So you know we anticipate the sound of the interview to be a little bouncy that is in terms of the audio. And likewise we are dealing with phone lines over a great great distances okay? So at this time it is our great pleasure to welcome him to the show. Mr. Oktar thank you so much for giving us some of your time and joining us here on the Heart of the Matter.

ADNAN OKTAR: Teşekkürlerimiz şükrümüz Allah’a.

Translator: We should all forward our thanks to Allah because He is the One Who made us able to talk to one another so we should thank Him and greet Him all the time. 

JEFF GARDNER: Very well said indeed. You know let’s talk about you just a little bit Mr.Oktar. You were born in Ankara. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, how did you grow up, tell us about your education tell us about your life?

ADNAN OKTAR: İki Şubat 1956 yılında Ankara’da doğdum.

Translator: I was born on February 2^nd , 1956. And I had got my primary and secondary and high school education in Ankara and then in 1979 I became a student in the Fındıklı Fine Arts Faculty in the department of Interior Designs. I became a student there until 1983 and in 1983 I became a student in Istanbul University in the department of philosophy. But due to anarchy and terror ruling that time in Turkey I had to seize my education and then forwarded my studies on to books, Cd’s and articles which was published in various magazines. Thanks to Allah I was able to write more than 300 books which have been published till now and I should be thanking for this to Allah and I believe that my work is very efficient and influencing forces all around the world.

JEFF GARDNER: I would say that’s certainly true. Your work has become influential and in fact you know you have become known at least within the Islamic world, as the focal point if you will as opposition to Charles Darwin. Let me ask you, at in what point in your life did you become aware of the teachings of Darwin. And when did you begin to have doubts about Darwin’s theories especially the theory of evolution.

ADNAN OKTAR: Well I started to feel those doubt when I was a student in primary school but since I was a small child then I had no means in communicating my doubts in a scientific way because I had no proof. But then I was aware of the Darwinist lies and the absurdity of Darwin’s theory. So I then started to rationalize all these things in my mind when I was a small child I could use my own logic and I expected to see around me some species which were between animals and human beings. So in my child eyes, I searched that if this evolution theory was right there could be such inter species like human-like apes or ape-like humans. But then I was not able to see any such thing around me. Similarly I expected to see dogs and cats who were able to talk for example. So this was my child logic which just strengthened my doubts about Darwin’s theory. And of course in the following years I was able to gather scientific proofs and started to be able to infer my ideas and doubts about the evolution theory in a more scientific manner. In the following years Darwin will only be mentioned in history books.

JEFF GARDNER:  Let me ask then how critical is the conflict right now between the Darwinists and creationists. Is this essentially a battle that is won, I mean as you say that you know Darwin will eventually only be mentioned in history books or are there still-if you will-fights to be fought?

ADNAN OKTAR: Darwinizm geniş çaplı dünyada şu an yenildi yani halk bunu duydu. –

Translator: If we look at the world in general we can say that the majority of the world’s population do not believe in Darwinizm any longer but then there are still some regions all around the world whose population did not hear about the counter arguments about the theory of evolution so there still remains a number of people who needs to be informed about these counter arguments against the theory of evolution. For example in the UK the recent polls reveal us the fact that 75% of the English population do not believe in Darwinism any longer. The remaining 25% of the English population who still believe in Darwinism comprises of groups like Masonic lodges, terrorists and fascists and one part of this percentage covers people who are simply ignorant. So if we look at the world in a general way, we can say that Darwinism has received a very serious blow and it has been defeated but then the populations all around the world need to hear this defeat and this can be done with what you are doing, with people like you and your work. 

JEFF GARDNER: Well thank you. Let’s talk a little bit about some of the organizations that you have established. Specifically the Science Research Foundation. Can you tell our listeners about the SRF when did you found this organization and why?

ADNAN OKTAR: Ben Bilim Araştırma Vakfının Fahri Başkanıyım.—

Translator: I am only the Honorary President of the Science Research Foundation. The founders of this foundation are my close friends so I am only the honorary president of the foundation. So it will be better for you to pose any questions about this foundation to the founders, who are my friends, not to me.

JEFF GARDNER: Well certainly. But you know what dear listeners we are running just a little bit short of our time, in fact we are running over on this segment. Mr. Oktar ­please hold it right there if you can and everybody else, you hold it right there too. Because we need to take quick break but we will be right back.

JEFF GARDNER: Welcome back to the “Heart of the Matter” right here on catholicradiointernational.com. I am your host Jeff Gardner and if you have just joining us, we are right in the middle of a conversation with Mr. Adnan Oktar. Mr. Oktar is perhaps the world’s most known Islamic Creationists. Certainly throughout the middle east but less so in the west although he is the vein of such evolutionary atheistic biologists like Richard K. Dawkins and here in the US P.Z.Myers. His literary output is a phenomenal. If you look at his website that is www.harun that is harun, yahya that is spelled y-a-h-y-a.com so let me give that to you again www.harunyahya.com and you can see for yourself just how much Mr.Oktar oversees and the organization he belongs to the Science Research Foundation and of course we will have the link right here on the show-page. But back to our conversation, Mr.Oktar before we went to the break we were talking about your work and the organizations that you are involved with and your latest work and I mean in this context book, the Atlas of Creation. It sets out to make the case that the fossil record shows that species have not evolved and you have sent literally tens of thousands of copies of this book which is full color and listeners this is, if nothing else, a phenomenal work, I have a copy right here on my desk, it is very luscious full color it weighs over 12 pounds it contains some 80 pages most of the color plates. And you’ve sent this to schools to papers to organizations to worldwide leaders around the globe. The production and printing and mailing costs of this project must be immense. How much has been spent on the campaign to get this book into the hands of some many people.

ADNAN OKTAR: Benim bu sene on altı milyon kitabım satıldı.

Translator: Only this last year 16 million of my books have been sold and one important fact remains to be underlined which is that I receive no royalty from the selling of my books. And the publishing house really have a lot of money to spend for promotion and for advertising and for sending people complimentary copies. They also have the power and chance to increase their income in this system so they can increase and strengthen the distribution of the book all around the world. So I think that the publishing house is very successful in this and our friends are doing a very great work.

JEFF GARDNER: 16 million copies, that is quiet an achievement. And as we well know, in our achievements and our listeners are our gifts, are gifts from Allah. But to you Mr.Oktar our congratulations on such a tremendously wide distribution of your book.

ADNAN OKTAR: Allah’a çok şükrediyorum.

Translator: I thank Allah for that.

JEFF GARDNER: Very good. You know as mentioned the book’s main argument is that the fossil record shows that evolution has not, I repeat listeners, has not occurred; that is that many species have not changed in millions of years. Is this a new argument, that is, is this a new search that the fossil record actually disproves rather than proves evolution. Is this a new demonstration for a creative earth or has this argument been around for some time and you know you were putting it forward in a very vivid way with all of these illustrations in your book.

ADNAN OKTAR: Bu benim bildiğim 1971’lerde de Amerika’da Darwinizme karşı çalışmalar olduğu fakat … 

Translator:  As far as I know in the 1970’s there was a movement against Darwin and his theory in the USA but that movement was a little input and it did not much influence on people. But my work on the other hand has tremendous effect on people and it was able to defeat Darwinism in one single strike. It had the effect of an atomic bomb if you like, so I again thank Allah for that. 

JEFF GARDNER: What has been the reaction within the scientific community to the Atlas of Creation?

ADNAN OKTAR: Bir tek Dawkins’in bir iddiası var. İşte bir böceğin maket olmasını garipsemiş onun –

Translator: Well actually Richard Dawkins had an argument against my book the Atlas of Creation and his argument was against a plastic model of an insect because he found it somehow strange that we use a plastic model of an insect. And all throughout the book he only found this as a fault and he stick to that fault and criticized us based on this plastic model. But as you know in many encyclopedias and scientific works like the Atlas of Creation it is very normal that people use plastic models or the illustrations or the original photographs of the animals or the species they are talking about. So it is very normal for us to use a plastic model for that insect too. We could very well use an illustration instead of a plastic model but then this was the only fault he could find in our book and he talked about the hook which was on this plastic model so just like a little fish he became a prey to that little hook. Now that hook is in his mouth and he is trying to get rid of it, but he just cannot get rid of it. So I see him discussing with little children of seven or ten years of age or with monks who have no idea about the evolution theory and his power is only sufficient for discussing these issues with children and monks only. I have invited him to Turkey and to discuss these things in front of the public in live program but he rejected my invitation because he knows that he will be defeated once he starts to talk to me. So he knows he is in great error he knows that he has already been defeated he simply tries to get rid of that hook which is in his mouth right now. Though with the hook I mentioned which was the part of the plastic model of the insect, so with God’s help he knows that he is, and he will be defeated.

JEFF GARDNER: Well, perhaps in some future date we’ll have Richard Dawkins here on the program and give the – you know- the answer from the horse’s mouth as we say here in the West as to why he has refused your invitation Mr.Oktar. What is it exactly about your work that he objects to. But for right now, sorry everyone we have got to take another break we are running along here on time, so please stay put don’t go away in just sixty seconds we are going to be right back.

JEFF GARDNER: Welcome back to the heart of the matter and our conversation with Mr.Adnan Oktar. Mr.Oktar in this final segment lets shift gears again and talk about what else is going on not only in the book but in your work. Your work asserts that Darwinism is the source for many of the ideologies such as you know fascism and the ideologies behind terrorism, be it Islamic or otherwise which have been just a scourge disruption to the world over the past two hundred plus years. Can you explain the correlation between Darwinism and these destructive ideologies to our listeners. Can you help make that link to our listeners please.

ADNAN OKTAR: Bu konuda çok detaylı benim internet sitemde bilgi var.

Translator: If I start to talk about that, that would take too long and I advise your listeners and you to visit my web page which is harunyahya.com and in this website the visitors will be able to browse through all kinds of scientific material about this link. And there will be many explanations and many scientific proofs. So we have not much time in this interview to talk about this link so I encourage you and advise you to visit that webpage harunyahya.com. But I can give you a very small example for this interview; Mao for example tells very clearly that the Chinese communism is based on Darwinism and we people on this earth knows the bloodshed which occurred in China. So Mao himself very clearly without any doubt had stated that the idea of Chinese communism is based on Darwinism so this is a scientific proof and a very small example, but a very clear one.

JEFF GARDNER: Very good listeners we will put the link to the website right here on the web page of catholicradiointernational.com come to the Heart of Matter show page and you can link right through for that more involved explanation. In the time that we have remaining and we have about five or so minutes I would like to get two more questions in if I could. The first of this is again you know talking about your work and really the goals the aims part of what you are doing as well your work and the work of the science research foundation. There is a call, you are calling on the people of the book that is Jews, Christians and Muslims to unite together in a peaceful and among other things opposing force to evolutionary, especially evolutionary atheism. Excuse me, listeners and I think the question that arises out of call, I think it is a very good one, a very noble one. But I think the question that arises is can Jews, Christians and Muslims unite together when neither Judaism or Islam recognizes Jesus of Nazareth, that is the Son of God, as Christians do. I suppose to put the question in brief can people of the three great religions of the world solve this division and come together in opposition to evolutionary atheism? What do you say?

ADNAN OKTAR: Bu dünyanın kaderi, Allah’ın Kur’an’da bize bildirdiği bir gerçektir. Tevrat’ta da bu açık açık belirtilmektedir. Ahir zamanda gelecek Mesih, Tevrat’ta belirtilen Mesih Müslüman’ların beklediği Mehdi’dir. Mehdi ve Mesih aynı kişilerdir. Hadislerde belirtilen Mehdi tarifi ile , Tevrat’ta belirtilen Mesih tarifi birbirine tam uygun düşmektedir. Gelen Mehdi hem Müslümanları, hem Hıristiyanları, hem de Musevileri, kardeş ortamda, güzel bir ortamda birleştirecek bunların sevgi ve huzur içinde yaşamalarını sağlayacaktır.---

Translator: Well, this is the world’s faith and this is what Allah tells us which will happen in the world in the near future. If you read the explanations in the Old Testament and if you read the hadith for example you will see that the definitions and the descriptions of the Mahdi and the Mesiah are very close to one and other and they are almost the same. So the Mahdi or the Mesiah will invite people to this unity and through his work this unity will be made possible. So Jesus Christ in fact is not dead, Allah has taken him to His Sight and when he comes back to earth he will come back to us in the same clothes as he was wearing when he was taken by Allah, he will be carrying the money, the currency he used then in his pockets. So he will come this is exactly his own faith, so Christians will recognize him as Jesus Christ once they see him. So this will happen in ten to fifteen years time. And when the Jesus Christ, the Messiah comes to this earth, all the people will be in great shock and Jesus Christ will be inviting people all around the world to the religion of Islam, he will be showing us many great miracles, he will defeat Anti-Christ. So people will have no other alternative but to believe in the fact that he is Jesus Christ himself. So Jesus Christ will be inviting all people to Qur’an and this will happen as I have said in ten to fifteen years time. You will be seeing this, I will be seeing this. We all will be seeing this fact. Christians will believe in Jesus Christ. Jewish people will believe in Jesus Christ, so this unity will be made possible through works of Jesus Christ. So he will be our, having, carrying his very good looking face, so Christians will of course have no doubt that he is Jesus Christ.

JEFF GARDNER: Interesting, that is the preposition that this unity will come soon after Christ’s resurrection in fact that could be a whole show in itself. One perhaps we can take up in the future but we have just a little bit of time left. And I would like to ask you two further questions. To start with; you know you spoke, you responded to some of your critics a little bit earlier here in the interview who made a point about some of the photographs in the book but let me ask you to respond to another criticism. You have brought and won a number of court cases in Turkey to block access to certain internet sites in your country namely Richard Dawkins’s site, and even back in 2007 worldpress.com . That is a site that’s frequently used to create blogs if you don’t know listeners. Many in the west wonder why did you do that? Your critics say, that you don’t play fair that in blocking these websites that is a sign of a weak argument that is a censorship. How would you respond to your critics?

Translator: Well the problem arises from the fact that my critics are not behaving very sincerely. Because the ways they approach me are generally through lies and insults. So as would be expected as a person I can not accept such a thing, I cannot accept any insults and any breaches on my personality. So I use my legal rights to fight against these insults and to stop these insults. You will be doing the same thing and look for your legal rights in no part of the world, we cannot talk about freedom of insults. On the other hand I welcome sincere criticisms, I welcome scientific criticisms and because I support the idea of the freedom of speech. I support the idea of democracy but I cannot and I do not support the freedom of insults. So I did something very normal and started to have my legal rights against insults.

ADNAN OKTAR: Kitabıma itiraz edenlerin hepsine bilimsel cevaplarımı internet sitelerinde verdim.

Translator: And to all other kinds of scientific and insincere criticisms which were forwarded to me are replied in my website harunyahya.com. So your listeners and all people who will be interested can easily access those documents and scientific examples I put in my website.

JEFF GARDNER: Very good, so you know, in effect what you are saying is in responding in this way, in a legal way you were responding to slander as we say here in the west, that is attacks that are directed at you personally, are untrue and are damaging to your persons or character. Would that be- you know – getting it correctly?

ADNAN OKTAR: Evet

Translator: Yes that is the case, exactly the case. Yes that is exactly the case. Because I am a person who supports the idea of freedom of speech as I have said. I want people to be able to give their words to their ideas and being free in what they are doing. But this have to be done in mutual respect otherwise people cannot accept insults and sneers.

JEFF GARDNER: Very good, well we are just about out of time Mr.Oktar. You are very well known throughout the Islamic world and I think your notoriety is growing in the Western world but certainly not as much in the Islamic world. So let me close by giving you the last word in asking you; what would you like Christians around the world to know about your life’s works and your goals? What would you like to say to them?

ADNAN OKTAR: What I can say is that in the end of the times Darwinism has been defeated and we no longer have such a thing as Darwinism. And I want people to know that Darwinism is the representation of the Anti-Christ ideology. But then this ideology and Darwinism is defeated and it does not exist so I want to give this as a good news to people all around the world.

JEFF GARDNER: Well the death of Darwinism perhaps a worldwide is occurring but I can tell you, here in the West we are still in the thick of it. But we are going to have to take that up at another time because at this time unfortunately Mr. Oktar listeners we are out of time. I want to thank you both. Thank you to Mr. Oktar for giving us your time and to our interpreter Mr. Colkin thank you so very much for being with us on the Heart of the Matter.

ADNAN OKTAR: Ben de teşekkür ediyorum. Hepinizi çok seviyorum.

Translator: I thank you too and I love you all.

JEFF GARDNER: And thank you. For everybody else, the listeners, stay right there because we have to take a quick break, but we will be right back.

JEFF GARDNER: And welcome back to the Heart of the Matter hey thanks for sticking around with us. Did you enjoy the interview with Mr.Oktar? We certainly enjoyed bringing it to you and please come right to catholicradiointernational.com, come to the Heart of the Matter show page, click on the comment link, tell us what you think? And we are going literally all over the planet to find the individuals and the view points right out there on the cutting edge, making history as we live our daily lives to bring them to you here on the Heart of the Matter. We have just a smidge here for some final thoughts. You know when we were preparing for this segment and again our thanks to Mr. Oktar’s assistants for being so patient, so helpful. But as we were preparing this show it reminded me of a book that I have read years ago by Peter Kreeft called Ecumenical Jihad in which he argues that our similarities are common causes between Muslims, Christians and Jews are much greater than any divisions that we might have and I think it is right pass time to dust that home again and take a listen to what Mr. Kreeft has got to say because let’s face it we are living in a world in which the secularists, the atheists are - well - cleaning our clock. But don’t lose hope the battle is not really ours we are merely instruments in the Hands of some One much much greater than each and every one of us. Well I am Jeff Gardner for the Heart of the Matter on catholicradiointernational.com asking you to keep listening, keep praying and God bless you…