Lauren Booth: It's a pleasure being here today; thank you for receiving me on Islam Channel. This lovely house in the center of Istanbul, and for more than 20 years, you've been a widely-read and controversial figure throughout the Islamic world. You've risen to particular prominence in Turkey since founding the Scientific Research Foundation in 1990 which, your aim, is said to be to be spread peace and love. Can you expand your mission statement for the viewers, please?

Adnan Oktar: There is unnecessary confusion in the world. The world is very wide. It is big enough for everyone and to easily solve everyone's food and housing needs. The only problem is love. I see a loveless world. Love must at once come to rule the world. That is why it will be very useful for the world to become a devout society.

Lauren Booth: It's very interesting to hear you talk about love, and reaching out to everyone around the world with the need to create a new, peaceful state; but what is written about you on the internet when I was doing my research is quite shocking. There was a lot of accusations, a lot of scandals surrounding yourself and your movement, and when I was coming here today, I was acutally more nervous of meeting you then I was to meet representatives of Hezbollah, that's how bad your PR is.

Adnan Oktar: Thank you.

Lauren Booth: Your movement is said to be very powerful in Turkey. Some say that the Science and Research Foundation isn't so much about peace and love but more about raising money, and it's a secretive cult. How do you respond to those accusations?

Adnan Oktar: The foundation does not make any money from anywhere. It does not make money. It is a foundation that gives money away. It is a foundations that gives away what means it has. Should I explain in brief?

Translator- You carry on, if you wish. If you are asking in terms of the interpreting, it is not a problem.

Adnan Oktar: Everyone who has ever espoused goodness and truth has been falsely accused and oppressed. The Prophet 'Isa (pbuh) was accused in that way. And Ibrahim. And they were exposed to intense pressure. The people who followed them were also oppressed in the same way. The Companions, that is, and the disciples of the Prophet 'Isa (pbuh) 'Isa says that you will even hear insults from people because of my name. He says they will imprison you. And when you go to prison, he says, God will cause you to say everything you say in your defence, so rest easy, he says. I am travelling in the same way down that same road.

Lauren Booth: Let's talk about your ideals now. In 1998, your foundation launched a campaign to dispute Darwinism, and his theories of evolution as fact. Free copies of some of your books have been distributed free across Turkey. Why is this campaign about creationism so important to you?

Adnan Oktar: Darwinism maintains that the world and life came into being entirely by chance, that the whole universe came into existence by chance. Even a child hearing that will immediately see that the life of anyone who thinks that life and the universe came into being by chance must be totally meaningless. Family or love will be meaningless for such people. They will regard themselves as animals doomed to cease existing one day. They will regard themselves as animals that came into existence by coincidence and therefore valueless. And that is indeed what happens. That is how matters stand for many people. Darwinism lies at the root of Marxism, fascism and savage capitalism. And Darwinism therefore lies at the root of all forms of violence. Communism is not a theory that can spread without violence. It resorted to violence everywhere, rather than ideas. It is using violence in Turkey today. There has been a huge Marxist uprising in Southeast Turkey. The PKK uprising is basically a Marxist uprising. It is a communist uprising. It is a Marxist, Leninist, Stalinist uprising. And when we look at its heart we find ourselves looking at Darwinism again. That is what we see from an intellectual examination of all forms of violence.

Lauren Booth: I didn't quite understand why the evolution theory is such a force for bad; I still don't quite grasp why that makes the world a bad place. It's just a way of explaining where we came from, it's not really linked to Buddhism that I can see. Could he just make that a bit clearer?

Adnan Oktar: Buddhism has a spiritual aspect to it. It has the concept of the soul. And it has a concept of creation. In Darwinism, however, the whole universe is regarded as chaos. In other words, aimless atoms came together by chance. A cell emerged by chance, and then went on to develop and grow by chance. Eventually scientists such as Newton and Einstein came into existence, and even such a scientist as Darwin who began examining himself under the microscope to see how he could have been brought into being from atoms. In other words, I suggest that an explanation based on atoms, atoms that emerged by chance, unthinking and unseeing atoms, eventually coming together in such a way as to examine themselves and ask how they could have come into existence by chance is totally illogical.

Lauren Booth: So for you obviously, Islam gives a link for all the people who find it to have a future, to have a connection with each other. And that links to your wish for an Islamic Union, because you believe that only that can really save the world and help all the people of the world, am I right?

Adnan Oktar: Of course, love will be the only thing underlying the Islamic Union. There will be security, there will be peace and there will be brotherhood. The Jews will be happy, and the Christians will be happy. Buddhists will be able to live at ease. There will be a delightful, peaceful society in which everyone will live at ease and in security, in which science, technology and art will develop to their maximum extent.

Lauren Booth: You've also made some specific suggestions about how to begin creating an Islamic Union between the 1.4 billion Muslims in the world. Would you like to give our viewers an idea of your vision of that union, and how it would specifically come about?

Adnan Oktar: Yes, what I want is for all Islamic states to maintain their unitary structures. These states that preserve their unitary structures can come together to establish a union of spirit, a spiritual union, a union of love, and can therefore select a spiritual leader, and wider activities ca be engaged in as necessary. The union can revolve around these people and have an assembly and a leader. It means their coming together and living in peace, taking the first steps towards peace, but all based on a secular system as they do so. In other words, it means giving the union a secular foundation. Because love and affection are highly important to all faiths. It means ensuring peace and security for the Jews in Israel and security for the Armenians in Armenia and their attaining economic prosperity. It means well-being for Buddhists, for example. I think that is how it will be everywhere, but think that Muslims will carry it out in that loving spirit that fears and adores God.

Lauren Booth: It's an interesting point that you once said that, 'Catholics have the Vatican, but there is no central authority for Muslims.' You've also spoken of the need to get an Islamic Union together very quickly, because things are bad in some parts of the world. And you also talk about a clash of civilizations, and not wanting that to happen. But would an Islamic Union not bring to a head a separateness, rather than a sense of well-being?

Adnan Oktar: Even if only Turkey, Iran, Pakistan and Egypt had agreed among themselves the union would have been set up at once and would be very powerful.

Lauren Booth: I'm interested in the inclusiveness of that argument, and the tolerance you've expressed, however in Turkey there are now several internet access sites and blogs and Google groups that want to discuss religious issues, such as atheism, and they have now, since December, been shut down one by one, and some people in Turkey feel that you are behind this. Would you like to explain how freedom of speech can be allowed when internet access is forbidden, and are you actually behind the closing of these sites? Is that what you want?

Adnan Oktar: The web sites that have been closed have been shut down because they carried libels against me and my colleagues. They were not closed because of the ideas in them, but the libels made therein. Nobody wants to see himself publicly insulted.

Lauren Booth: Wouldn't it have been possible to just take the offending pieces off, and let the dialogue between the many people continue?

Adnan Oktar: That is the court's decision, not ours. And there is no such provision. When a site is closed because of libel it is closed in its entirety. When those sections of the sites are put in order one can then apply to the courts and the sites may be re-opened without the libellous parts.

Lauren Booth: I've been very interested in your writing on the End of Times. You believe that we're approaching that moment now, perhaps you'd like to explain in what way we're approaching that moment, what signals are in the al-Qur'am show that we're approaching the End of Times, and please tell our viewers what you see happening that makes you so positive about the fact that we are there?

Adnan Oktar: I have described around 300 portents regarding the coming of 'Isa the Messiah and written about these in my books. The invasion of Afghanistan, for example, is a portent of the coming of both the Mahdi and 'Isa the Messiah. You can find these 300 or so portents, including the invasion of Afghanistan, a dam cutting the waters of the River Euphrates and drying up its basin, solar and lunar eclipses at 15-day intervals during the month of Ramadan, a huge sign in the Sun and others on my web site. All these portents have taken place, and in a very short space of time. All these portents have happened in just 15-20 years. That is a true miracle. This is a clear sign that the return of 'Isa the Messiah and the coming of the Mahdi are close at hand.

Lauren Booth: I think you've been asked this before, so I am going to ask you. Do you think the Savior is already here?

Adnan Oktar: In my view the Mahdi has already come.

Lauren Booth: Do you think you're the Mahdi?

Adnan Oktar: I resemble him very closely, but I make no such claim. Because of my religious beliefs I can make no such claim during my life. In terms of external appearance, however, I am identical to him. The Mahdi is descended from the Prophet (saas), as am I. I am a sayyid. Let me give you a proof regarding the Mahdi. It will be better to become acquainted with the Mahdi in that way. Because anyone can bear these signs. These signs cannot be used to claim someone is the Mahdi. But let me give you a very powerful piece of circumstantial evidence. In my view it is highly likely that someone instrumental in causing Islam to rule across the world is in fact the Mahdi.

Lauren Booth: Why... You've spoken a lot about Turkey's importance in the world but Turkey is, at this moment, still seen as a secular state, the link between East and West. Would you like to start a world revolution in Islam here in Turkey, and do you want Turkey to be an Islamic state?

Adnan Oktar: There is no need for Turkey to become an Islamic state. Turkey is already an Islamic country, but there is no need for the state to determine itself as an Islamic one. It is far more important for it to be a secular state for the union.

Lauren Booth: I'm going to ask a question I've been asked to ask by a restaurant owner in Istanbul, and he has three daughters, they're very little, and the changes he feels in the society around Turkey and perhaps the nervousness he has around your foundation, perhaps you are less secular than he is; would his daughters be expected to wear the veil, will there be demands that are going to be made on women, are there going to be changes in society that you hope to create such as that?

Adnan Oktar: The danger described by your friend is a danger for us, too. It is a danger for me. I can never accept such a system. It is not a system that has any place in Islam. It is a fascist system. Compulsion is common under fascism, but there can be no compulsion in the faith. It is totally immoral for women to be pressurised in this way, to be obliged to wear the headscarf. Nobody can accept that. Nothing about it is compatible with reason, logic or the faith.

Lauren Booth: You wrote a book, "Judaism and Freemasonry" quite a long time ago, it was very famous, it caused you some problems. You blame those in the title of being involved in destroying Turkish society. But since then, Tel Aviv University has said that you are much more involved in interfaith discussions. Is that right, and how have your views changed, and have they changed about Freemasonry?

Adnan Oktar: Masons in Turkey and the rest of the world are very distinguished people. I like them as human beings. They are top quality people. I just think that an atheistic, Darwinist education has been erroneously imposed on them. Darwinism is a primitive deception that has now passed its sell-by date. I cannot accept that any rational person can believe in such a thing. I find that illogical, and criticise them in scientific terms. But I have no quarrel with their personalities, but with their Darwinist mindset they are inevitably part of a system that secretly resorts to violence and oppression against religion. That is what I am opposed to.

Lauren Booth: There are obviously academics and scientists in the Muslim community who believe in Darwinism over creationism. Is that possible? Is it possible to believe in Darwinism and be a Muslim?

Adnan Oktar: It would be quite possible if Darwinism were true, of course. But there is no such thing as Darwinism. If it were true, we would discover intermediate form fossils. Some 100 million fossils have been unearthed to date. But we have seen that not one is a transitional form. In other words, not one transitional form fossil has ever been fund. Stones from beneath the ground thus tell us that there is no such thing as Darwinism. Stones have spoken and said that creation is true, but that there is no Darwinism. But had we run across any of the intermediate form fossils that should have existed in the course of the excavations carried out, we would have said so. We could have said that God created the universe through evolution. He created living things. But there is nothing of the kind. It is all a lie. And we are saying all this just because it is all a lie. No protein, for instance, can come into existence by chance. It is impossible. Scientifically impossible. It is impossible for even a single protein to form spontaneously. Not even the best television in the world can provide an image as good as that occurring at this moment in my brain and your brain. There is a superb three-dimensional image in my brain and your brain at this exact moment. No Sharp TV or Phillips TV, for instance, can provide such a sharp image.

Lauren Booth: It's interesting to think that perhaps you have something in common with George Bush then who backs the creationists in the Southern states of America, the Christian creationists. Do you have quite a lot in common with them perhaps?

Adnan Oktar: Yes. But as you know, America is also one of those places where Darwinism enjoys the widest support in the world, on account of its supposed scientific appearance. Darwinist research institutions and universities are strongest in America. The system that supports Darwinism is actually American in origin and spreads to the rest of the world from there. That is a known fact.

Lauren Booth: In '98, in 1998, the SRF, your foundation, launched a campaign against Darwinism. And it's said that you spearheaded an effort to intimidate Turkish academics who taught evolutionary theory. A number of faculty members say they were harassed, threatened, and slandered in leaflets, and in 1999, six of the professors won a civil court case against the SRF for defamation, and they won money. Is that how you have a debate? Did that happen? Do you feel this question must be raised in this way?

Adnan Oktar: I don't remember anything like that happening. Do you remember anything else? Can you remember any names?

Lauren Booth: In 1999, it's the professors, it's a civil court case, it wasn't a judicial court case, a civil court case, individual academics who said they'd been harassed. No, I haven't got the names.

Adnan Oktar: We were not involved in any court cases regarding putting pressure on anyone to issue false statements. I have always encouraged freedom of speech. So such a thing is impossible.

Lauren Booth: Why is it then so often on the internet that you are put forward as an ambassador, as someone who is against freedom of speech in any form? It seems, from my research, that you are not someone to debate. Why is it different from your life, from how you see your life?

Adnan Oktar: I have previously been detained by the police for no reason and held in the Security Department Headquarters for 72 hours. Cocaine was mixed in with my food and drink while I was detained in the Security Department. And i was then taken to court, accused of using cocaine. But the court determined that the cocaine had been mixed in with my food, and that the police had done it, while I was in custody. I was then released. My friends and I were up against the Marxist secret society. Nobody expects such a powerful and secret body, operating right at the heart of the state, to stoop to such depths. But it did, and does. They held me in a mental hospital for 10 months for no reason at all, for instance. They kept me with all the mental patients, including killers and murderers. We need to investigate the power behind that. In other words, the secret society's web has spread right through the institutions of the state. It is not at all difficult for them to spread slander and libel, conspire and bring their force to bear where they will, and it comes as no surprise when they do. That is a system that has been around for a long time, now. There is a struggle between the followers of Shaytan and the followers of God. Such actions are perfectly normal in that struggle. I frequently encounter events of this kind, since I am on God's side and love Him, and I will continue to be subjected to them. I regard it as perfectly normal.

Lauren Booth: You seem to have found yourself, or perhaps been chosen, to have a rather extraordinary life. You've had many highs and many lows. You've been arrested, put into a mental institution, you've had some followers behind you, you seem to have some very powerful enemies, and some very powerful friends. Tell our viewers a little about your life; what were your best moments, and why do you think you're having this sort of life?

Adnan Oktar: I enjoy love. I like being with the people I love and feeling their affection. I like flowers. I like animals, and children, and beautiful people and moral virtues. I enjoy all beautiful things; they all make me happy.

Lauren Booth: Last month, it looks like you're going to go to prison, you and 17 others of your organization were sentenced to three years in prison in Turkey for very serious crimes. I understand some of these concern young women. Would you like to explain the charges, why you have been found guilty, and your appeal?

Adnan Oktar: Of course we are going to appeal. But there are no women involved in that way. There are no young women involved anywhere in the files. Neither did anything of that kind happen. This is a totally fictitious accusation, and whoever makes such accusations should be able to cite chapter and verse or at least give names. These accusations are totally fictitious, extracted under torture or threat of death. Anyone will say anything to save his life. We were also tortured in our time. Many of my friends were given electric shocks. And hung from the ceiling. They were threatened with death. People will say anything, will say what the police tell them to, in order for it to stop. That is what we did. But that does not mean that it is true. Then they later said that since we had made those admissions to the police they must all be true. That is totally illogical. Our lawyers were not present when we made those statements that were extracted by force. Under Turkish law, those statements are therefore inadmissible. We were convicted on the basis of that inadmissible evidence. And that is why we hope the verdict will be overturned at appeal.

Lauren Booth: Turkey's human rights record, issues like you just raised, are one of the reasons that they may not be coming into the EU very soon; would it be a good move do you think for Turkey and the people here to come inside the European Union?

Adnan Oktar: I think there will be a major readjustment of the law and laws. I think that the current legal deficiencies will be made good. I think it will be extremely beneficial, but I want Turkey to join the EU as the leader of the |Turkish-Islamic Union. Not as just any old country. The police alleged that the economic means enjoyed by our foundation and my colleagues were illegal. Then the state looked into it. The relevant official institutions conducted a lengthy inquiry. Inspectors published reports to the effect that my colleagues' incomes were completely legal. Official state reports established the fact that their earnings were legal and that there was nothing illegal going on at all. All the allegations to the effect they were receiving money from abroad and enjoying illegal earnings were dropped.

Lauren Booth: Where does the money come from for your growing foundation?

Adnan Oktar: My friends' families are generally wealthy, but they are also successful businessmen themselves, both in Turkey and internationally, and are engaged in profitable business activities. They pay their taxes under close official supervision. Nothing illegal goes on at all. Their organisations and businesses are all in the public eye, and there is nothing secret or hidden at all.

Lauren Booth: Do you fear assassination, and who do you fear?

Adnan Oktar: Since I am a Muslim and believe in God I cannot possibly have any such fears. Such fears are sinful for any Muslim. And are also very ugly. God bestows the soul, and God takes it back. People die at the appointed time. Nobody can kill anyone outside that framework. So I am not afraid of being killed my anyone. Nine attempts have been made on my life. Some with guns, others with knives. But I was never even wounded in any of them. Nothing can happen without God's approval. I can neither die nor be killed without His approval. There is a time appointed for that by God. But nobody can kill me until that time comes.

Lauren Booth: A last question; what have you got to complete before you're allowed to die?

Adnan Oktar: I would like to see Islam prevail across the whole world. And I would like to embrace the Prophet 'Isa (pbuh) if God will bestow such a blessing.

Lauren Booth: Adnan Oktar, on behalf of all our viewers on the Islam Channel, thank you very much for being my guest on In Focus.

Adnan Oktar: Thank you. After I had been held in the mental hospital, a military hospital issued a report saying I was not mentally ill and was in fact perfectly sane. In other words, the first report said I was mentally ill, while the report issued in the military hospital said I was sane. That is how I was discharged from hospital. Seven people were killed in the hospital during my time there. The mental patients killed seven people. You can use that in your credit run at the end of the programme. If you see fit. That is all.

And I and my colleagues are currently facing trial with the police demanding sentences of around 1,000 years. Let me also say that.

Lauren Booth: By the government. The government is now following up the…

Adnan Oktar: Yes, the state. Those police officers, and their chief, have been removed from their posts. They were removed because of those torture claims.

Lauren Booth: Adnan Oktar, thank you very much for joining us on the Islam Channel, and for being my guest.

Adnan Oktar: Thank you. It has been a pleasure. Insha'Allah we will meet again.